tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post7430259596319560420..comments2023-10-19T06:08:33.289-04:00Comments on Shinzen's Blog: From Fuzz to Buzz: Suggestions for Breaking Through Sleepiness During Meditation PracticeShinzenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07744561308696460214noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-46458326226776010252013-09-20T01:07:02.983-04:002013-09-20T01:07:02.983-04:00Hi Shinzen, Does my Absolute Mathematics make any ...Hi Shinzen, Does my Absolute Mathematics make any sense to you?? Few people understand. Kind Regards, David Nicolas Tate <br />http://www.flickr.com/photos/dav1dnicolas/3561605913/David Nicolas Tatehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/dav1dnicolas/3561605913/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-77034902517171462802013-08-30T12:20:59.154-04:002013-08-30T12:20:59.154-04:00Keep up the good work!Keep up the good work!Shinzenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07744561308696460214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-51687295179659496882013-08-30T12:19:55.664-04:002013-08-30T12:19:55.664-04:00Hi Everyone,
I had exactly the same questions and...Hi Everyone,<br /><br />I had exactly the same questions and concerns when I began my practice in Japan. My academic study of Buddhism told me that Buddhist practice is the Middle Way, a balance point between self indulgence and self torture. It seemed to me that the sleep deprivation piece that I experienced in Japanese monasteries was way valenced toward torture. It made no sense to me at the time. In retrospect, I realize that the schedule was designed to FORCE people to discover the things that I mentioned in this blogpost. Unfortunately no one ever explained that explicitly, neither did anyone give a clear description of how to go about doing so. That’s why I wrote this blogpost. I think people should have the *choice* of working with challenges like pain, sleepiness, and so forth. I agree, it may not be optimal to force people to face these things--especially if they’re not given a clear explanation of Why and the How. At my retreats, people have the *option* to do yaza (all night sitting, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaza) and adhiṭṭhāna (strong-determination sitting, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhi%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADh%C4%81na) but are not required to do so. On the other hand, they’re also allowed to sleep as much as they want whenever they want – especially if they are relative beginners. That’s how I like to deal with this issue. <br /><br />FYI, the Tibetans do sometimes really get into sleep deprivation and such. I know an American woman who became a “Dark retreat” master (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_retreat). At one point in her training, her body was locked into a tiny box, barely large enough to accommodate it but with her head sticking out of the top, making it of course impossible to lie down. The box was placed in a completely darkened room for a month during which time she did not eat or drink, or get out of the box (although she was “steamed off” which apparently resulted in enough hydration to prevent death). Insanely beyond the parameters of the Geneva Conventions! All of this, of course, was with total informed consent.<br /><br />Your question inspired me to do some more writing which will appear in a week or two on this blog. <br />Shinzenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07744561308696460214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-71757478241828773172013-08-23T16:09:31.774-04:002013-08-23T16:09:31.774-04:00Hi Anon poster from Aug 1,
I agree with you. I jus...Hi Anon poster from Aug 1,<br />I agree with you. I just spent a few months at a Zen temple and couldn't understand the lack of serious consideration some had when people (many people) mentioned being tired all the time. Given that it's a bodily requirement to sleep enough, and that science has shown that people simply don't get used to sleeping less than their individual setpoints, this lack of consideration actually had me questioning the sustainability of true Zen practice as something I can do. And I'm not a lazy slacker, either, nor were the others who had similar concerns. <br />Thank you.Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-44961491806915166392013-08-11T09:45:16.797-04:002013-08-11T09:45:16.797-04:00p.s. The comment above thanking Shinzen Young for ...p.s. The comment above thanking Shinzen Young for his Five Ways Manual and his guided meditations is from me, breathing ;-) Logan.Logannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-50320181835050117742013-08-11T07:38:26.584-04:002013-08-11T07:38:26.584-04:00Shinzen Young's Five Ways Manual
http://www.s...Shinzen Young's Five Ways Manual <br />http://www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/FiveWays.pdf<br />is really great!<br />Also, I use Shinzen's guided meditations. They work for many purposes including falling into restful sleep. Lie flat and open comfortably, breating with a guided meditation. If you do not fall asleep you will be resting. Either way is refreshing. <br />First rate materials for opening doors to new worlds, in and out.<br />Many thanks to Shinzen Young!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-18193894825353316422013-08-05T06:25:43.062-04:002013-08-05T06:25:43.062-04:00I agree. I posted Aug 1. I just thought that this ...I agree. I posted Aug 1. I just thought that this blogger might have some thoughts on the subject. Evidently not. I have done several long retreats at Theravadan monasteries where we have been allowed only 4 hours of sleep. Some places allow even less. Larry Rosenberg has an interesting description in one of his books of doing a long retreat at a Korean Zen monastery where for the last week (!) they had to go completely without sleep. Not eating after noon is an austerity one can easily adapt to and I think heightens one's level of meditation. But sleep deprivation, I question.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-74501159312434090482013-08-04T11:33:46.230-04:002013-08-04T11:33:46.230-04:00This post is really clear and useful, i find that ...This post is really clear and useful, i find that this way to work with sleepiness is really good not only during a formal meditation, but also a lot during day-to-day life!!<br /><br />I always love your style of analyazing problems, Shinzen!Mr.Ektorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01818482921755817434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-32100899033681085992013-08-03T13:17:32.636-04:002013-08-03T13:17:32.636-04:00Some great tips Shinzen. Thanks for sharing! I ten...Some great tips Shinzen. Thanks for sharing! I tend to be quite gentle with my meditations when it comes to sleepiness. If I am having a hard time maintaining an erect posture due to tiredness. I don't fight it. I often will recline on my back on the ground with my knees bent and my feet flat on the group, either with my arms to the sides or overlapping on my lower belly. I then allow myself to go into a deep relaxing lull, while maintaining some degree of mindfulness--in the spirit of Yoga Nidra, a deep relaxation yogic meditation practice done supine. I tend to not sleep very deeply at night, so I like to encourage myself to go into these rejuvenating states of deep relaxation during the day. However, I am aware that there are some people who constantly nod off when meditating even when they sleep deeply at night. They are chronic dozers. In these cases, "fighting" the sleepiness may be more appropriate then giving in to it during meditation--at least for a period of time.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03894851250578162358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-41195258449424805652013-08-02T10:25:38.964-04:002013-08-02T10:25:38.964-04:00Perfect timing for this post - I was just (for the...Perfect timing for this post - I was just (for the first time actually) battling sleepiness when I sat yesterday... Thanks!Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17607160275974981829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-31875228173347940972013-08-02T03:03:54.033-04:002013-08-02T03:03:54.033-04:00Hi Anonymous,
I don't think this advice is nec...Hi Anonymous,<br />I don't think this advice is necessarily for sleepiness due to sleep deprivation. Sleepiness is just an issue that comes up for a lot of people during meditation even after a good 8 hour rest.<br />Michelle<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1621407185903447523.post-70895609560713715162013-08-01T19:47:31.923-04:002013-08-01T19:47:31.923-04:00I've done quite a few serious retreats, and ha...I've done quite a few serious retreats, and have never understood the emphasis in Zen and Theravada on sleep deprivation (Tibetan not so much). Modern research is clear that building up a sleep debt adversely affects our brain's functioning. That's why the CIA uses it in interrogations. I also understand that advanced meditaters can get most of the benefits of sleep from their actual meditation. But why not just let meditaters on retreat get the sleep they need (up to 8 hrs max) and not create an unnecessary problem for them (particularly for beginners)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com